Talk:Frank Simes
Note: Although this is the first episode in which we see Frank Simes, this episode also states that Frank was the agent Jack talked to over the phone during Day 1 6:00am-7:00am about going to the Press Conference. So then if a character is mentioned, but later seen, the "Mentioned in" field in the sidebar becomes obsolete? What if a character is mentioned several times before their seen, such as Victor Drazen? Is First Mentioned/Last Mentioned merely a placeholder for characters who were never seen? Should we even included the "Mentioned" field at all, since it's already going to be cited in the article? I'm so confused about how people want this to work. *Sigh* just another problem I have with the sidebar templates. --Proudhug 16:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC) :I think in this case we can just add seen in and not mentioned in, since Frank was never introduced by name when Jack talked to him on the phone. It was Frank who revealed this when he told Jack, "You call me at 6:30 AM . . ." so in a way Frank's sort of introducing himself to the show. -WarthogDemon 17:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Are you sure? I'd have to check it again, but I seem to remember Simes actually being mentioned by name in the scene on the phone. --Proudhug 17:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC) : I'm pretty sure. The only name mentioned was Agent Pierce when the man (Simes) told Jack who'd process him when he arrived at the power plant. I also watch with closed captions on to ensure I get names correct and I never saw Simes, only "Agent." And since names are always included in close captions (even before names are spoken by characters) I'm about 99% sure no "Frank" or "Simes" was given over the phone. -WarthogDemon 17:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Ha, I just watched the scene again and it seems we were both right... sort of. Or both wrong, depending on how you look at it. The person who Jack talks to on the phone addresses himself as Frank Miller, not Simes, and it's clearly not the same actor's voice. Not sure how the name got changed there. Perhaps they didn't want people to think that the Sin City author was moonlighting as a Secret Service agent. --Proudhug 17:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC) : That's another oddity. That's not the only character who's name got changed. Alan Hayes in the next episode was (at first) referred to as last name being "Hanks" on closed captions (and spoken, I think). That almost made me create an unnecessary character page before remembering I saw that character up here. -WarthogDemon 17:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC) 2 Franks I don't necessarily know what the best solution for this is, and I'm not definitely proposing splitting this article. But don't we only assume continuity errors/retcons if events specifically rule out another possibility? I think it's entirely possible that Frank Miller and Frank Simes are two different people. The name and actor discrepancy always bothered me. Basically Jack was making lots of phone calls in his office around 6:30am - and we don't know he didn't make more calls before and/or after the scene we saw. When he speaks to Frank Miller, he asks for "priority clearance for Palmer's breakfast", not mentioning his weapon he would be bringing. Frank Simes then says Jack called him to "get clearance to bring a weapon into the breakfast". It's entirely possible after speaking to the SS liaison (Miller) to allow himself to be added to the list of attendees, he then had to call another SS agent (Simes) to go through the weapons and equipment he would be taking past security. Splitting this article would make it messy and it's a lot nicer having the continuity of one character, but I really don't like the double whammy of a different name and actor being assigned to one character, based on the dialogue which doesn't definitively state anything much--Acer4666 14:56, August 2, 2011 (UTC) :Bump: I'm leaning towards splitting this article into Frank Miller and Frank Simes--Acer4666 14:17, September 12, 2011 (UTC) :: I always took "priority clearance" to be the code/jargon for the permission to bring a firearm. In my opinion it would be silly to have to call another dude about a firearm for a federal agent who just got "priority clearance". :: It is possible, the doubt you're shedding on this, but I do believe it is a bigger assumption than the assumption that "Miller" was a continuity error. The process you're talking about might apply to John (Secret Service): Walt told North to contact John to stop Martha, and the next thing we see is a guy in Martha's face. Using the process you're describing, it's possible that North radioed to John, who then delegated the responsibility to the closest agent to the podium — if this is the case, then John is actually only a mentioned character and the Michael Jacey agent is still unnamed. However, we always use the minimum plausible number of steps in linking a name to a character, and given season 1's other continuity issues, it still seems to me that Miller was meant to reappear but his name was accidentally changed. 00:00, September 13, 2011 (UTC) :::I don't think the John case is them same: crucially, we have no reason to assume that isn't john. If North called "John" and we heard John's voice that was definitely not Michael Jacey's, and then Michael Jacey was called a different name, would we really assume a continuity error?--Acer4666 00:06, September 13, 2011 (UTC) :::: Yes, if it were the same first name and just a different last name. :::: The "voice on the other end of the phone" has been different before, even though the circumstances were not the same. (It happened even for Ryan Chappelle.) The voice on the phone doesn't factor in for me because of that, and the surname really does seem to be a continuity error on account of what I was mentioning earlier, the point about how bizarre it would be for Jack to have to call 2 different guys named Frank given the context. 01:32, September 13, 2011 (UTC) :::::Ok, but I think this is a double-standard, when compared to the splitting of someone like cimbe. I could give examples of two characters being seen with two different actors playing them (think of all the visible stunt doubles) per your ryan chappelle argument, but that isn't enough to assume cimbe is the same person in-universe. :::::As for treating a season 1 continuity error differently from one from another season (as you seemed to be implying in your first post), I don't see that season 1 had more errors than the other seasons, and even if it did that can't factor into the decision--Acer4666 10:02, September 13, 2011 (UTC)